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iimormon.weebly.com informed inquiry 360 (Christian > Mormon > Christian)
Just another anti Mormon Website ?
Nope - I joined the LDS church, dubbed Mormons as a Christian with a sincere heart and desire to embrace and obey "the fullness of the gospel" and I made covenants and came closer to Christ there in my faith, but then ... (Spoiler: There are still some aspects of the Mormon Faith that l cherish) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
... This website is about my personal faith struggle in suffering from cognitive dissonance in matters of faith. I will always seek and honor truth wherever I find it, pursuing inspiration and dialogue. My extended family are Mormons and self identify as LDS-Christians , who seek to follow the Lord Jesus Christ in accordance with their convictions. Myself and my immediate family have lost faith in the authenticity and exclusiveness of the Mormon foundational claims to sole truth and sole authority in matters of faith. While we uphold certain Mormon values and teaching, we nevertheless disagree with significant aspects of Mormon theology, which we belief has been contaminated by Masonic teachings, which the LDS-Church has further developed and anchored in scripture and doctrine. This has caused us to leave the fellowship and take our names of the membership records. We have done this with a sense of pain and loss and we still maintain our respect for many Mormon principles and some doctrines which have shaped us for good. We are still close to our dear extended family and sometimes even pray together. We believe that ultimately God determines and reveals all matters of truth and that salvation is personal, practical and possible across the denominational divide. At the centre of Jesus teachings where always heart issues regardless of all the theological clashes he was engaging in with the spiritual elite of his time. Hence I prefer building bridges over burning bridges. We are pilgrims and seekers, let's walk together by seeking and serving God to the best of our knowledge and in his graceful enabling power and sacrificial redemption.
I have ultimately left my former confession behind and I have left the fellowship on good terms and even with the encouragement of local LDS leaders.
CLICK here to Watch Mormons Came To My Door by Francis Chan ! (1 Mio views)
Just another anti Mormon Website ?
Nope - I joined the LDS church, dubbed Mormons as a Christian with a sincere heart and desire to embrace and obey "the fullness of the gospel" and I made covenants and came closer to Christ there in my faith, but then ... (Spoiler: There are still some aspects of the Mormon Faith that l cherish) ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
... This website is about my personal faith struggle in suffering from cognitive dissonance in matters of faith. I will always seek and honor truth wherever I find it, pursuing inspiration and dialogue. My extended family are Mormons and self identify as LDS-Christians , who seek to follow the Lord Jesus Christ in accordance with their convictions. Myself and my immediate family have lost faith in the authenticity and exclusiveness of the Mormon foundational claims to sole truth and sole authority in matters of faith. While we uphold certain Mormon values and teaching, we nevertheless disagree with significant aspects of Mormon theology, which we belief has been contaminated by Masonic teachings, which the LDS-Church has further developed and anchored in scripture and doctrine. This has caused us to leave the fellowship and take our names of the membership records. We have done this with a sense of pain and loss and we still maintain our respect for many Mormon principles and some doctrines which have shaped us for good. We are still close to our dear extended family and sometimes even pray together. We believe that ultimately God determines and reveals all matters of truth and that salvation is personal, practical and possible across the denominational divide. At the centre of Jesus teachings where always heart issues regardless of all the theological clashes he was engaging in with the spiritual elite of his time. Hence I prefer building bridges over burning bridges. We are pilgrims and seekers, let's walk together by seeking and serving God to the best of our knowledge and in his graceful enabling power and sacrificial redemption.
I have ultimately left my former confession behind and I have left the fellowship on good terms and even with the encouragement of local LDS leaders.
CLICK here to Watch Mormons Came To My Door by Francis Chan ! (1 Mio views)
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
I'm indebted to the Mormon Church to a fair degree for who I am and what I believe today. If any of my earlier posts here or anywhere else appears to be hostile or antagonistic to the Mormon faith or their Prophets I apologise. AS to earlier posts please note that nowadays in 2019 I may not perceive and/or write everything in the same emphatic way as I may have up to some 25 years later. I think with the passage of time the intensity of feelings and opinions and the wisdom of age would have led to the toning down some of my expressed opinions. Over time hurt and outrage have a way to level out. After having left the Mormon Church I still keep practicing a biblical faith in the knowledge that I don't have all the answers and that I'm not the judge and that's the last thing I would want to be. So if you do feel thretaned by some of the inconvenient facts or opinions presented here as I did in the past please keep in mind that you are the judge !
I'm indebted to the Mormon Church to a fair degree for who I am and what I believe today. If any of my earlier posts here or anywhere else appears to be hostile or antagonistic to the Mormon faith or their Prophets I apologise. AS to earlier posts please note that nowadays in 2019 I may not perceive and/or write everything in the same emphatic way as I may have up to some 25 years later. I think with the passage of time the intensity of feelings and opinions and the wisdom of age would have led to the toning down some of my expressed opinions. Over time hurt and outrage have a way to level out. After having left the Mormon Church I still keep practicing a biblical faith in the knowledge that I don't have all the answers and that I'm not the judge and that's the last thing I would want to be. So if you do feel thretaned by some of the inconvenient facts or opinions presented here as I did in the past please keep in mind that you are the judge !
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If we have the truth it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.
J Reuben Clark (Mormon Apostle - deseased) D. Michael Quinn https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/3pokeo/context_for_the_wellknown_j_reuben_clark_quote/ |
"If anyone causes one of these little ones-those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
Jesus in Matt 18:6 New International Version |
DO MORMONS BELIEVE IN HELL ?
A: YES, BUT in a rather limited sense, which is less harsh then the literal main stream Christian position !
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy.
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed Him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/do-mormons-believe-in-hell_b_9140202
Compare with ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell DENOMONATIONS COMPARED
https://www.near-death.com/science/research/hell.html
https://christianitymalaysia.com/wp/trip-hell-crusade-philip-mantofa/ VERY EXTREME VISION BY A PASTOR OF HIGH INTEGRITY
http://www.nowsthetime.org/ MAINSTREAM EVANGELICAL VIEW
Hebrew scriptures showing God does not punish people forever:
a. "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." (Lamentations 3:31-33)
b. "I will not accuse them forever, nor will I always be angry, for then they would faint away because of me -- the very people I have created. I was enraged by their sinful greed; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their willful ways. I have seen their ways, but I will heal them; I will guide them and restore comfort to Israel’s mourners." (Isaiah 57:16-18)
c. "The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10)
d. "Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy." (Micah 7:18)
Christianity: Scriptures showing souls do not stay in hell forever:
a. "[Jesus] went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (1 Peter 3:18-20) Also, "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6) See also "The Harrowing of Hell."
b. "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:47-48)
c. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." (Matthew 5:22-26)
d. Jesus stated: "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:9-11)
A: YES, BUT in a rather limited sense, which is less harsh then the literal main stream Christian position !
Latter-day revelation speaks of hell in at least two senses. First, it is the temporary abode in the spirit world for those who were disobedient in mortality. In this sense, hell has an end. The spirits there will be taught the gospel, and sometime following their repentance they will be resurrected to a degree of glory of which they are worthy.
Second, it is the permanent location of those who are not redeemed by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. In this sense, hell is permanent. It is for those who are found “filthy still” (D&C 88:35, 102). This is the place where Satan, his angels, and the sons of perdition—those who have denied the Son after the Father has revealed Him—will dwell eternally (D&C 76:43–46).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/do-mormons-believe-in-hell_b_9140202
Compare with ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_Hell DENOMONATIONS COMPARED
https://www.near-death.com/science/research/hell.html
https://christianitymalaysia.com/wp/trip-hell-crusade-philip-mantofa/ VERY EXTREME VISION BY A PASTOR OF HIGH INTEGRITY
http://www.nowsthetime.org/ MAINSTREAM EVANGELICAL VIEW
Hebrew scriptures showing God does not punish people forever:
a. "For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone." (Lamentations 3:31-33)
b. "I will not accuse them forever, nor will I always be angry, for then they would faint away because of me -- the very people I have created. I was enraged by their sinful greed; I punished them, and hid my face in anger, yet they kept on in their willful ways. I have seen their ways, but I will heal them; I will guide them and restore comfort to Israel’s mourners." (Isaiah 57:16-18)
c. "The Lord will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God." (Isaiah 52:10)
d. "Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy." (Micah 7:18)
Christianity: Scriptures showing souls do not stay in hell forever:
a. "[Jesus] went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." (1 Peter 3:18-20) Also, "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." (1 Peter 4:6) See also "The Harrowing of Hell."
b. "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows." (Luke 12:47-48)
c. "Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny." (Matthew 5:22-26)
d. Jesus stated: "Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!" (Matthew 7:9-11)
The Enigmatic Visionary Joseph Smith (1st Prophet of the LDS, FLDS and RLDS/CoC Church)
By all appearances Joseph Smith made up grand story (The Book of Mormon) and brought it to life. He really believed in his divine mission and his zeal bore fruit. It worked so well that he gained a following of tens of thousands in his life time (ca 25000) and much more after his death. Some 60 000 Mormons are on record to have been pioneers (tracking west in the great Mormon exodus). That's when the movement was able to create its own real history. The vision, spirit and zeal of Joseph Smith has survived his death and that is why the Mormon church is here to stay even if its growth rates are decelerating on an annual basis. They come in closer to the replacement rate, especially in the US in 2018. Smiths legacy has produced a fine people (the Mormons) especially as the LDS church has learned and adapted. Neither the fundamental FLDS nor the reformative RLDS church has been anywhere near as successful in creating a faith following as the LDS church has been.
My quest for truth !
Seeking spiritual truth has been a lifelong journey for me. It still is, but I have learned that facts and truth are not the same and yet may co-exist. Trebas solved this dilemma for himself by discerning btw litera truth and figurative truth. I converted to the Mormon church and formally left 42 years later. I was no longer keeping the LDS churches Masonic inspired temple covenants and felt I needed to make a clean break. The Book of Mormon appears to be an artifact that strongly promotes a Christian Gospel (in spite of some hard to discern theological deviations). As the years have gone by I became less judgemental of Joseph Smith and the Mormon belief system (let the Lord be the judge). I see Mormons as having a portion of the Christian spirit, but not its fullness. On some issues Mormons have come closer to the biblical truth compared to biblical Christians (as which I identify now), while on other issues I believe they have crossed the line of heresy.
The more I know the more I realise how much I don't know. So looking back on 50 years of spiritual living I have come full circle in my faith and still not figured everything out. I became a Mormon Convert in 1972 but left the fellowship in 1995 due to loss of faith and a desire to be honest before God. I had lost faith in the truth of the Mormon foundational claims of a purely divine origin and a second ancient Christian church in the Americas and hence I could no longer keep my temple covenants in propagating that faith as pure divine truth. I converted back to my earlier Bible faith realising that a deep spiritual truth is real and sustainable even when shrouded in myth and symbolism and tainted by error, misconceptions, ambiguity and controversy. A genuine Faith in our Creator God can survive a certain amount of cracks in the faith concept of truth needing to be altogether literal literal to be called the truth. It took me until 2014 to actually remove my name from the Mormon membership records.
Are Mormon Christians (Saved) ?
I believe that devout Mormons just like devout Christians in general share a genuine desire to follow Jesus.
Mormons and Christians share the bulk of New Testament Truth, in spite of the true christian teachings being embedded in Mormon literary fiction and amended (compromised) by newer Mormon revelations. And in addition the basics of the Mormon Heaven and Hell still have some appeal for me. There are passages in the Bof Mormon that are uplifting and inspiring pointing to a truth that is hidden within a purely fictional narrative. Hence I wish Mormons well in their process of reforming their church towards a biblical Christianity while keeping their faith in Jesus Christ. In this respect the RLDS church (CoC) has lead the way, followed by the dominant LDS church (Utah) while leaving the FLDS church still mired in errant traditions way behind.
So are Mormons Christians ? More likely than not ! And are they saved and are their heresies forgivable ? Ultimately its only God who knows our heart and only he will be a fair judge.
(WS - Melbourne Australia June 2019)
By all appearances Joseph Smith made up grand story (The Book of Mormon) and brought it to life. He really believed in his divine mission and his zeal bore fruit. It worked so well that he gained a following of tens of thousands in his life time (ca 25000) and much more after his death. Some 60 000 Mormons are on record to have been pioneers (tracking west in the great Mormon exodus). That's when the movement was able to create its own real history. The vision, spirit and zeal of Joseph Smith has survived his death and that is why the Mormon church is here to stay even if its growth rates are decelerating on an annual basis. They come in closer to the replacement rate, especially in the US in 2018. Smiths legacy has produced a fine people (the Mormons) especially as the LDS church has learned and adapted. Neither the fundamental FLDS nor the reformative RLDS church has been anywhere near as successful in creating a faith following as the LDS church has been.
My quest for truth !
Seeking spiritual truth has been a lifelong journey for me. It still is, but I have learned that facts and truth are not the same and yet may co-exist. Trebas solved this dilemma for himself by discerning btw litera truth and figurative truth. I converted to the Mormon church and formally left 42 years later. I was no longer keeping the LDS churches Masonic inspired temple covenants and felt I needed to make a clean break. The Book of Mormon appears to be an artifact that strongly promotes a Christian Gospel (in spite of some hard to discern theological deviations). As the years have gone by I became less judgemental of Joseph Smith and the Mormon belief system (let the Lord be the judge). I see Mormons as having a portion of the Christian spirit, but not its fullness. On some issues Mormons have come closer to the biblical truth compared to biblical Christians (as which I identify now), while on other issues I believe they have crossed the line of heresy.
The more I know the more I realise how much I don't know. So looking back on 50 years of spiritual living I have come full circle in my faith and still not figured everything out. I became a Mormon Convert in 1972 but left the fellowship in 1995 due to loss of faith and a desire to be honest before God. I had lost faith in the truth of the Mormon foundational claims of a purely divine origin and a second ancient Christian church in the Americas and hence I could no longer keep my temple covenants in propagating that faith as pure divine truth. I converted back to my earlier Bible faith realising that a deep spiritual truth is real and sustainable even when shrouded in myth and symbolism and tainted by error, misconceptions, ambiguity and controversy. A genuine Faith in our Creator God can survive a certain amount of cracks in the faith concept of truth needing to be altogether literal literal to be called the truth. It took me until 2014 to actually remove my name from the Mormon membership records.
Are Mormon Christians (Saved) ?
I believe that devout Mormons just like devout Christians in general share a genuine desire to follow Jesus.
Mormons and Christians share the bulk of New Testament Truth, in spite of the true christian teachings being embedded in Mormon literary fiction and amended (compromised) by newer Mormon revelations. And in addition the basics of the Mormon Heaven and Hell still have some appeal for me. There are passages in the Bof Mormon that are uplifting and inspiring pointing to a truth that is hidden within a purely fictional narrative. Hence I wish Mormons well in their process of reforming their church towards a biblical Christianity while keeping their faith in Jesus Christ. In this respect the RLDS church (CoC) has lead the way, followed by the dominant LDS church (Utah) while leaving the FLDS church still mired in errant traditions way behind.
So are Mormons Christians ? More likely than not ! And are they saved and are their heresies forgivable ? Ultimately its only God who knows our heart and only he will be a fair judge.
(WS - Melbourne Australia June 2019)
A few questions for Mormons and Investigators (prospective Converts):
I love Mormons, they are beautiful. I used to be a Mormon and my relatives are still Mormons. In 1995 I lost my faith in Mormonism and left, but you may have a different path to go and need to stay and become a catalyst for reform ? My point of departure was being unable to reconcile Masonic lore and oaths in Mormonism with Original early Christianity. The LDS churches sole truth claim with regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its monopoly on heaven / salvation are simply not sustainable. In my opinion Mormonism has been founded on Masonry and fiction, which are incompatible with what Jesus Christ taught in the Bible.
Having said that I would not want to cause any Mormon to loose faith in Mormonism without being convinced of the truth and power of a Bible based faith first. I do understand that many beautiful Mormons like Grant Palmer do want to stay in the fold and practice a Christ centred faith within the LDS church (unfortunately he was too honest to be allowed to stay). The RLDS Mormons (CofC) have progressed well towards reformation. I am not Anti-Mormon and I will pray for the leaders of the LDS church. They have a difficult task in reforming the LDS church as guardians of their members faith. May the be blessed with wisdom and courage.
Advise for those about to join the Mormon church (before praying about the truth)
Seek truth by study and also by prayer . Read the Bible and the Bof Mormon and the Controversial Gospel Essays on LDS.org as well .(search for plural marriage . Also check out AdamsroadMinistry.com and Mormonthink.com .
It is easy to feel good about uplifting narratives and anecdotes if confirmation bias comes into play. But as a truth seeker be aware that you are praying over truth found in Apocrypha and Masonic Lore (D&C) when you pray for a testimony of the Book of Mormon , the LDS prophet and the LDS church. Many Mormons no longer believe the Book of Mormon and the LDS church are literally true, but value "the truth" that can be found in fiction. The RLDS church (they are also Mormons) have reformed and call themselves now CoC = Communities of Christ. Please note, that the LDS church wishes to be no longer identified by its nickname Mormons. Its proper official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"
Watch the Lucy Code. Read about Polygamy: https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
Mormonthink's response ! Further reading at Mormonism101 .Is the Mormon Gospel really the restored Gospel ?
- Is the Mormon Gospel really the restored Gospel and the same as the Gospel found in the Bible ?
- Have you read the New Testament in the Bible - at least John, Luke, Acts and Ephesians ?
- Is the LDS temple doctrine reflecting what the early church was like in Lukes , Johns or Pauls time ?
- Did Jesus teach and endorse secret teachings and (masonic) oaths ?
- Did you read the Mormon Essays on Controversial Issues (official publications) ?
- Did you read the materials published by Mormon academics (some did get into big trouble)
I love Mormons, they are beautiful. I used to be a Mormon and my relatives are still Mormons. In 1995 I lost my faith in Mormonism and left, but you may have a different path to go and need to stay and become a catalyst for reform ? My point of departure was being unable to reconcile Masonic lore and oaths in Mormonism with Original early Christianity. The LDS churches sole truth claim with regards to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and its monopoly on heaven / salvation are simply not sustainable. In my opinion Mormonism has been founded on Masonry and fiction, which are incompatible with what Jesus Christ taught in the Bible.
Having said that I would not want to cause any Mormon to loose faith in Mormonism without being convinced of the truth and power of a Bible based faith first. I do understand that many beautiful Mormons like Grant Palmer do want to stay in the fold and practice a Christ centred faith within the LDS church (unfortunately he was too honest to be allowed to stay). The RLDS Mormons (CofC) have progressed well towards reformation. I am not Anti-Mormon and I will pray for the leaders of the LDS church. They have a difficult task in reforming the LDS church as guardians of their members faith. May the be blessed with wisdom and courage.
Advise for those about to join the Mormon church (before praying about the truth)
Seek truth by study and also by prayer . Read the Bible and the Bof Mormon and the Controversial Gospel Essays on LDS.org as well .(search for plural marriage . Also check out AdamsroadMinistry.com and Mormonthink.com .
It is easy to feel good about uplifting narratives and anecdotes if confirmation bias comes into play. But as a truth seeker be aware that you are praying over truth found in Apocrypha and Masonic Lore (D&C) when you pray for a testimony of the Book of Mormon , the LDS prophet and the LDS church. Many Mormons no longer believe the Book of Mormon and the LDS church are literally true, but value "the truth" that can be found in fiction. The RLDS church (they are also Mormons) have reformed and call themselves now CoC = Communities of Christ. Please note, that the LDS church wishes to be no longer identified by its nickname Mormons. Its proper official name is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints"
Watch the Lucy Code. Read about Polygamy: https://www.lds.org/topics/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvoo?lang=eng
Mormonthink's response ! Further reading at Mormonism101 .Is the Mormon Gospel really the restored Gospel ?
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The Lucy Code - Stolen Treasures
Few Mormons knew that Mormonism from the beginning had deep Masonic-Christian Roots ! It was only known as a later innovation that Joseph Smith added within the Nauvoo Temple Ceremony. With "The Lucy Code" presented @ the ExMormon Foundation 2017 "Figurative" Mormon D Pawl Trebas is opening up a new vista based on his interpretation of Lucy Mack Smiths suppressed biographical book. He provides convincing evidence that the masonic concepts contained in Mormonism where taught at Dartmouth College where Hyrum got his education. The book is not published yet, but its concepts where presented at the Exmormon foundation in 2017. I have noticed that the LDS church is gradually removing controversial masonic content from its temple ceremonies. The Book of Mormon appears to be anti-mason (it takes issue with secret societies), but the Smith family's early masonic beliefs where not known to me until recently. Disclaimer: I don't agree with most of the speculative part of Trebas' presentation, but the research part is very convincing. |
About me
I'm German-Australian and live in Melbourne. I stopped fellowshipping in the Mormon Church in 1995 and had my name removed from the records of the LDS church in 2014. I value truth and faith equally high and that can be a dilemma because to be fair and honest I have to look at Mormonism and Christianity through the same lens. This led me to arrived at the conclusion that truth and fiction will always co-exist and that a myth has some value as well. Seeming", i.e. what "seems to be" will always have a place in our world view and propaganda takes full advantage of that. But I strongly disagree with atheists that conclude that the Bible is no different from the Book of Mormon (BoM). The BoM history is concoction of pure fiction and was written within just a few years by one man who didn't mind to freely abrogate theological concepts during his 14 years of public ministry. Some call this pious fraud and hence this is in stark contrast to the bibles dispensationalism, which serves as an explanation to underpin a genuine interaction between God and man through the ages. A multi-authored bible shows an evolving perception of divine encounters and was written over hundreds of years and spans thousands of years. I had to embark on a journey of renewed discovery and re-assessment of identity covering both self and God and that is why I relate to DP Trebas research (left) to a fair degree. On my journey I have met people that manifest the presence of God in such a way that I must confess that God is alive regardless of any flaws found in the Bible. I am grateful for the character and testimonies of Grant Palmer (deceased) , Micah Wilders and his family (AdamsRoad Ministry). Read Micah's Grace and Truth essay here. |
http://arielcoffee.weebly.com/for-mormons.html Our local coffee outreach website in Melbourne
http://www.mormonthink.com/grantpalmer/grantpalmer.htm
https://www.grantpalmer.net/
https://www.adamsroadministry.com/music-videos
https://www.youtube.com/adamsroadministry
https://www.facebook.com/adamsroadministry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDMaL_JRZik (Francis Chan)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHzh5WohN7s&t=2h29m30s (Dan Mohler)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrxhQ6rtwc (Micah Wilder - AdamsRoad)
https://www.adamsroadministry.com/gospel-essays
https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-responses-intro.htm
To find the official essay on Joseph Smith’s polygamy just google "Plural marriage Kirtland" or search within LDS.org or click on https://www.lds.org/…/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvo…
Grant Palmers grasp of true Mormon Testimony is profound and his own testimony of Jesus is very powerful. His story about the unbelieving GA is very revealing. RIP Grant Palmers - you have been such a blessing to me. I have loved reading your inspired words about the Devine Nature embedded in the 9 character attributes of Jesus Christ - 2Peter1.
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/…/MormonHistorianGrantPalme…
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My family and I left the LDS church more 20 years ago (in 1995), I was 45 then, but only in June 2014) I have finally decided to resign. Its been tough to re-image God and myself. Initially we felt bewildered, sad, angry and betrayed when we found out that the LDS churches absolute truth claims and unique scriptures where in essence pious imagination, projection and deception mixed with some genuine belief in a divine mission. Only the core message of salvation in Christ as taught in the Bible could justify a genuine truth claim and that would be the substance of any genuine spiritual experience or testimony or epiphany that Mormons experience . Even if the Mormon church does engage in many positive aspects of a spiritual life and a practical faith a substantial body of its teachings are at odds with the Bible. Palmer explains how the Mormon (image of) Jesus deviates from the Gospel Jesus. Nobody has been able to completely figure out the mind and spiritual journey of Joseph Smith. In only 14 years Mormonism established and then abrogated (superseded) its own foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon, as if God changed his mind. In that aspect I can see a parallel to Muhammad who managed to integrate equally strong contradictions and gain a large following that thrives even in the west and in the internet age.
I have not turned away from Christ nor the priesthood. However I believe only in a common priesthood for all, a privilege that Christians can exercise by faith. There is however only one high priest, Jesus Christ our Lord. By grace I have salvaged and re-defined my personal faith in Jesus Christ and the believers priesthood for all. Having abandoned my faith in the LDS church I do wish her well in truly redefining gospel truth. The LDS leaders promote a gentle shift in de- emphasizing an infallible church, yet they always testify that the gospel is true (their church) even if the LDS leaders makes mistakes.
It is my desire to soften the blow and devastation that many Mormons sooner or later will suffer In facing the facts, Mormons need a message of hope that God is alive and well. There is more truth life, light and hope outside of the LDS church than within. God must not be blamed for Joseph's lack of honesty and his character flaws. Having sincerely erred must not spell the end of trusting in the Bible and the Holy Ghost.
http://www.mormonthink.com/grantpalmer/grantpalmer.htm
https://www.grantpalmer.net/
https://www.adamsroadministry.com/music-videos
https://www.youtube.com/adamsroadministry
https://www.facebook.com/adamsroadministry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDMaL_JRZik (Francis Chan)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHzh5WohN7s&t=2h29m30s (Dan Mohler)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrxhQ6rtwc (Micah Wilder - AdamsRoad)
https://www.adamsroadministry.com/gospel-essays
https://www.lds.org/topics/essays?lang=eng
http://www.mormonthink.com/essays-responses-intro.htm
To find the official essay on Joseph Smith’s polygamy just google "Plural marriage Kirtland" or search within LDS.org or click on https://www.lds.org/…/plural-marriage-in-kirtland-and-nauvo…
Grant Palmers grasp of true Mormon Testimony is profound and his own testimony of Jesus is very powerful. His story about the unbelieving GA is very revealing. RIP Grant Palmers - you have been such a blessing to me. I have loved reading your inspired words about the Devine Nature embedded in the 9 character attributes of Jesus Christ - 2Peter1.
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/…/MormonHistorianGrantPalme…
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My family and I left the LDS church more 20 years ago (in 1995), I was 45 then, but only in June 2014) I have finally decided to resign. Its been tough to re-image God and myself. Initially we felt bewildered, sad, angry and betrayed when we found out that the LDS churches absolute truth claims and unique scriptures where in essence pious imagination, projection and deception mixed with some genuine belief in a divine mission. Only the core message of salvation in Christ as taught in the Bible could justify a genuine truth claim and that would be the substance of any genuine spiritual experience or testimony or epiphany that Mormons experience . Even if the Mormon church does engage in many positive aspects of a spiritual life and a practical faith a substantial body of its teachings are at odds with the Bible. Palmer explains how the Mormon (image of) Jesus deviates from the Gospel Jesus. Nobody has been able to completely figure out the mind and spiritual journey of Joseph Smith. In only 14 years Mormonism established and then abrogated (superseded) its own foundational scripture, the Book of Mormon, as if God changed his mind. In that aspect I can see a parallel to Muhammad who managed to integrate equally strong contradictions and gain a large following that thrives even in the west and in the internet age.
I have not turned away from Christ nor the priesthood. However I believe only in a common priesthood for all, a privilege that Christians can exercise by faith. There is however only one high priest, Jesus Christ our Lord. By grace I have salvaged and re-defined my personal faith in Jesus Christ and the believers priesthood for all. Having abandoned my faith in the LDS church I do wish her well in truly redefining gospel truth. The LDS leaders promote a gentle shift in de- emphasizing an infallible church, yet they always testify that the gospel is true (their church) even if the LDS leaders makes mistakes.
It is my desire to soften the blow and devastation that many Mormons sooner or later will suffer In facing the facts, Mormons need a message of hope that God is alive and well. There is more truth life, light and hope outside of the LDS church than within. God must not be blamed for Joseph's lack of honesty and his character flaws. Having sincerely erred must not spell the end of trusting in the Bible and the Holy Ghost.
When we left Mormonism we immediately attended various Christian churches. At the same time we read a lot and I also broadened my general interest in science and ancient history. All I wanted from science is that it keeps the door open for God and faith. The big bang theory, quantum physics and NDE research do exactly that. I recon the case for an afterlife and an intelligent universe is actually much better than the 50/50 random chance (of tossing a coin). Now I am ready for social proof for faith and among all the religions Christianity stands out with a theology of an enabling God that pays it forward in love to transform our lives.
So what do I expect from true and pure religion ? First it has to have a sufficient level of rational plausibility (true) and then it must make a difference on trustworthiness, character and integrity. And it must resemble its founder, both in spirituality and godly love. This is what I can find exemplified in some Christian role models that really shine. It's not a matter of religion. It's a matter of the heart. And that is why I kept faith in God and keep pursuing the journey of hope and growth in seeking after his nature. He lives in us ! In our days the spirit of God has been pored out on all flesh and we all are a royal priesthood if we can accept that in faith and make time for him personally.
After filtering out any delusion, deception and honest errors of judgement there remains a power and authenticity in some Christians that embody Jesus so much that the miracles in the bible appear very credible and reproducible and the character and love of Jesus are supernaturally manifest and very real. The prophecy in Joel is being fulfilled in our time. Check out on youtube what pure Christianity looks like. Dan Mohler , Todd White , Heidi Baker , Francis Chan and Tony Campolo have convincingly modeled the Christlike life.
In terms of devotion, personal miracles and strength of Christ-likeness I have never seen any match in today's Mormonism. It seems that today's Mormonisms achievements remain very much in the domain of inspirational / motivational achievements mobilising a faith in divine blessings that reward personal efforts, self reliance, obedience to leaders and revealed laws and principles that are mostly humanly possible. It seems that Mormonism is essentially self-reliant/egocentric ad opposed to a self-abandoned-christocentric Christianity. Living the 7 habits brings success on earth and a temple covenant based morality that equates obedience with love (rather than love with obedience) secures a Mormons place in highest heaven.
The ultimate test in spiritual/social proof is up to me and you. Willl I bear the proof (fruits) that self-abandoned Christianity trumps Mormonism in terms of the demonstration of the love & power of God ? Authority claims mean nothing.
So what do I expect from true and pure religion ? First it has to have a sufficient level of rational plausibility (true) and then it must make a difference on trustworthiness, character and integrity. And it must resemble its founder, both in spirituality and godly love. This is what I can find exemplified in some Christian role models that really shine. It's not a matter of religion. It's a matter of the heart. And that is why I kept faith in God and keep pursuing the journey of hope and growth in seeking after his nature. He lives in us ! In our days the spirit of God has been pored out on all flesh and we all are a royal priesthood if we can accept that in faith and make time for him personally.
After filtering out any delusion, deception and honest errors of judgement there remains a power and authenticity in some Christians that embody Jesus so much that the miracles in the bible appear very credible and reproducible and the character and love of Jesus are supernaturally manifest and very real. The prophecy in Joel is being fulfilled in our time. Check out on youtube what pure Christianity looks like. Dan Mohler , Todd White , Heidi Baker , Francis Chan and Tony Campolo have convincingly modeled the Christlike life.
In terms of devotion, personal miracles and strength of Christ-likeness I have never seen any match in today's Mormonism. It seems that today's Mormonisms achievements remain very much in the domain of inspirational / motivational achievements mobilising a faith in divine blessings that reward personal efforts, self reliance, obedience to leaders and revealed laws and principles that are mostly humanly possible. It seems that Mormonism is essentially self-reliant/egocentric ad opposed to a self-abandoned-christocentric Christianity. Living the 7 habits brings success on earth and a temple covenant based morality that equates obedience with love (rather than love with obedience) secures a Mormons place in highest heaven.
The ultimate test in spiritual/social proof is up to me and you. Willl I bear the proof (fruits) that self-abandoned Christianity trumps Mormonism in terms of the demonstration of the love & power of God ? Authority claims mean nothing.
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When Mormons break their covenants and leave their church due to cognitive dissonance they actually give up their identity for the sake of their integrity in being true to themselves. But can Christians offer disillusioned Mormons a new and better hope and identity in Christ ? I respond with a firm Yes. Check out on youtube what pure Christianity looks like. Dan Mohler , Todd White , Heidi Baker , Francis Chan , and Tony Campolo have convincingly demonstrated the power of God in their own lives. Disenchanted Mormons are very active on reddit (15k+) and on John Dehlins Podcast Community (7k+). About half of them remain within the LDS church. Of those who leave some become atheists or new agers. The RLDS/CoC are doing a better job in reforming then the LDS. They accommodate 3 roughly equal main camps of believers. We have a better hope in Jesus and many Christians demonstrate the love and power of God. Mormonii @ http://bit.ly/1CgOtf Faith Love Hope | Light & Truth ! ( > Dan Mohlers video
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Who are the Mormons ?
Mormons are members of the LDS church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) and consider themselves to be literal believers in Jesus Christ and practitioners of the only authorized full gospel. This makes them an exclusive, innovative and unorthodox Christian sect. The LDS religion has evolved into a Christian / Pagan composite belief system. Mormons are beautiful clean cut people, highly principled, well educated and diligent, they do however live in a bubble and when their illusions break down they feel devastated. The current leaders maintain a very hard to defend legacy claim of divine providence and authority and uphold Joseph Smiths claim of having founded the only true and living church with an angelically instituted priesthood that is acceptable to God and will survive for time and eternity.
Besides the LDS Church (Utah) there are a number of much smaller Mormon churches that should also be noted, in particular RLDS and FLDS (Reorganised / Fundamentalist). It's beyond the scope of this website to elaborate on them, but they are a noteworthy study subject for anybody desiring to understand the Mormon Dilemma.
Besides X-Mormons and Jack-Mormons another special Sub Group of Mormons are those I would call "Mormons with Questions" or "Figurative Mormons". They love the LDS church and embrace fiction as a vehicle to convey spiritual truth and want to stay onboard and be honest and open at the same time. They are facing a rough time and if they are too vocal and too public and gain a following they face excommunication with all its related heartaches.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/excommunicated-mormon-church_b_8066072
More recently LDS prophet Russel Nelson has cause another challenge for the faithful that are worth mentioning as another sub category of fringe group members of the LDS church. He has described the recent mRNA "vaccine technology" as a God-Sent. Some prominent top scientists however have provided substantial evidence that the mentioned gene tech is a bio weapon for which they cite patent literature as evidence. The best known critic is Dr David Martin (PhD) who got invited to testify at a 2023 summit at the venues of the European Parliament in 2023 and he layed down compelling evidence. See below.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfLycFHBsro
https://seemorerocks.is/dr-david-e-martin-phds-address-to-the-european-union-parliament-may-2023/
May 27, 2023 BRUSSELS
The video is the presentation given by Dr. David E. Martin in the European Union in Brussels on the 3rd of May 2023 at the 3rd International Covid Summit. There is no editing or manipulation other than cutting the beginning and end of the original hours of video covering the entire summit. Also recommended: - Pfizer's hearing in EU Parliament Special Committee on 10. Nov 2022: • EU Parliament Spe... - Document in which this presentation is based on https://www.davidmartin.world/wp-cont... - David Martin's homepage: https://www.davidmartin.world/ - Fauci-Anderson Email exchange: https://theintercept.com/2023/01/19/c... - Anderson's lab receives $12.8 million in funding a year later after he changed his mind about the origin of the virus: https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-even... - Robert Garry changing his mind about the origin of the virus in 48 hours: • Why Dr. Robert Ga... - Evidence for the first people getting sick: https://open.substack.com/pub/public/...
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Many Mormons who have come to question their faith would be familiar with the following online resources. So how have I come out of Mormonism without loosing faith in God ? Research wise for me the strongest case for God does come from NDE's and Quantum physic coupled with the social proof of anecdotal evidence from thousands of Christians that walk with Jesus in an extraordinary and miraculous closeness. Links - Online communities for informed Mormons: facebook.com/MormonVoices Scott Gordon PRO LDS facebook.com/pages/MormonThinkcom Critical facebook.com/pages/Mormon-History PRO facebook.com/mormonstories Critical facebook.com/groups/mormonstories Critical Links - Pure Christianity: Campolo & Prostitutes Campolo & BMW Campolo & Compassion |
This website reflects my faith journey in discovering the truth about Mormonism (cartoon) and seeking a better reality in my Christian foundations. My target audience are Mormons that go through doubts as well as potential proselytes (investigators considering to become Mormons). Faithful Mormons that are happy with their faith but interested in discovering Mormonisms many controversial issues are advised to study the official LDS topics section first at https://www.lds.org . The Mormon church slowly makes revisions as it slowly admits to have spread some fiction and some errors. And the Saints keep marching on. It is a delicate issue and it is tragic if somebody looses faith in Jesus altogether. Nobody has embodied the father heart and divine nature of God more than Jesus the Messiah and his closest disciples then and now !. He is alive. These days I can only accept Joseph as one of many religious seekers who was lucky enough to make it to fame at a time and in a society that was relatively tolerant. But let me say there is more light and knowledge to be had outside of Mormonism - welcome to Moremon. Back to Basics - Read J Streeters Because of Him ! |
Mormonthink on Youtube
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“God created man in His image, and man has returned the favor.” (Mark Twain)
"If we don't leave the church, then we don't have to concentrate on all the bad stuff just so we can justify our choice to leave." (New Order Mormons)
Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:27 (NIV)
"The nature of the message in the Book of Mormon is such, that if true, no one can possibly be saved and reject it; if false, no one can possibly be saved and receive it.” (Orson Pratt) http://bit.ly/2e0iyvs |
